Curse

Savio · Mar 03, 2008, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

Here's a simpler example, where would we be today if MATH or IQ agreed with you and didn't attempt to improve strategies, skill bars and tactics?

Math...?

They don't create inherently worse builds, and they aren't creative for the sake of being creative.

Div · Mar 03, 2008, 06:15 AM // 06:15

There are examples of decent builds that are new. Like the assassin's promise or healer's covenant monks. Or the warrior bar that recharges adren like crazy. They're far from the norm, but also fairly effective.

Unfortunately, there are too many people who don't know the difference between a non-cookie cutter build and a total shit build. A non cookie cutter build can still be good, but what most people are posting are complete trash, and it's obvious.

Dr Strangelove · Mar 03, 2008, 06:29 AM // 06:29

I wish I could find it, but there was an interview with the guys from Math where they said something along the lines of "We're not really set on one build, we play what wins".

If being creative helps you win, it's good. If shamelessly ripping off other people's builds makes you win, you do that.

EDIT: It was IQ, I think. Dammit.

Luminarus · Mar 03, 2008, 07:40 AM // 07:40

I have made and used builds that are vastly different from the essentials. However, from trialing I know the value of KD's, IAS, Speed Boost, Interupts, Spikes etc.

Therefore, the builds I usually use incorporate these. I was running an executioners, penetrating, distracting, flurry, sprint, heal sig, wy & rebirth in PVE before I heard about any of the forums for the game. (I was up to LA at the time). I soon realised flurry didnt work really well and replaced it with something, cant remember what.

Point being that whist u can make, play, and win with builds that dont follow this standard, they USUALLY arent as good because most combinations have been tried, and seen to fail.

Remember, there are 300,000+ people who play the game, many have tried warrior in pvp. 99% of possible skill bars have probably been tried, and IF a bar was to succeed, it would have reached meta by now.

Skyros · Mar 03, 2008, 07:45 AM // 07:45

i dun understand why you seek the approval of the people on this forum... if you have a build that you think is unique and works well, then run it. if you dun want people to take apart your builds then don't post. part of posting builds is to have the balls to take all the criticisms with stride.

Cathode_Reborn · Mar 03, 2008, 09:02 AM // 09:02

There's plenty of "different" builds you can use in pve, but it's very likely they'll be inferior to what a standard W/P D-slash war can do. You can't really argue against it - perma KD, "Save yourselves" with little downtime (if your faction rank is decent), and high dps.

I completely understand that it gets boring for many and people would rather run somethin else, but.....at least try to use a build that isn't so useless. When people throw out their "different" builds here, they're often low-quality. One thing people don't seem to realize is that GW isn't really a coloring book where you can be unique and creative with skills and builds any way you want. Still though, there are somewhat different builds that are abit effective.

Also, while this is the pve section of the forums, I think it's perfectly fine to post AB builds here. It's a mix of pve/pvp, so builds for use there are often different than what you'd use in pve and pvp. Still though, some people get abit out of hand with it and end up using stuff that's just plain bad. It's perfectly fine to be creative as long as it's somethin good.

Anyways, for alternative builds that are at least a little decent, I can't really think of much right now. I had the idea of using Auspicious Parry in pve to fuel stuff like "SY" or Brawling headbutt, and as a nice cancel stance for Frenzy. Somethin else I wanted to try was Echo Whirlwind attack for lots of aoe damage - yeah there's Triple chop but meh, never liked the recharge....it's abit faster to get 6 adren. Thought about using Skullcrack with Brawling headbutt + Steelfang slash to get the adren for it. Never tried any of those, just random ideas. One example of a kinda odd build being effective is a W/D using Warrior's Endurance with lots of 3/4 energy attacks. It could be used with a scythe or hammer. The last buff to Pious assault made it abit more effective if you're using the scythe version.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

I'm not sure there'd be a reason to post something new until Izzy does something to drastically shape up the warrior metagame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

Remember, there are 300,000+ people who play the game, many have tried warrior in pvp. 99% of possible skill bars have probably been tried, and IF a bar was to succeed, it would have reached meta by now.

These are both very true. I think many people don't seem to realize the way stuff works in GW when it comes to builds becoming known to the community. There really isn't any "hidden" builds in this game - as soon as there's a skill update, any new good builds or skill combinations are usually discovered by like within the first week of the update. It's probably very safe to assume that every effective pve warrior build is already known. I've run into plenty of people that think they're using some really good "secret" build but often it's something bad or nothin new. While PvXwiki is jam packed with builds, TONS of them are simply ineffective ones that won't really see any use. Another chunk of those builds are just variants of some other one.

Basically in other words, don't expect to see any true new changes or builds untill there's a warrior skill update. The result is most threads going off topic because the current topic is somethin that's been discussed many times already.

Anyways, when it comes to stupid creative builds, nothin beat's an E/R Thunderclap ele

isamu kurosawa · Mar 03, 2008, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

Anyways, when it comes to stupid creative builds, nothin beat's an E/R Thunderclap ele

an E/N ride the lightning, shock, whirlwind, vamptouch/bite ele is rates higher in stupid creativity XD

ogre_jd · Mar 03, 2008, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyros

i dun understand why you seek the approval of the people on this forum... if you have a build that you think is unique and works well, then run it. if you dun want people to take apart your builds then don't post. part of posting builds is to have the balls to take all the criticisms with stride.

Except that 99.9999999% of that 'criticism' amounts to "It's not cookie cutter! u suks!", from what I've seen so far.

Arkantos · Mar 03, 2008, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

Except that 99.9999999% of that 'criticism' amounts to "It's not cookie cutter! u suks!", from what I've seen so far.

It's not because it's not a cookie cutter, it's because the current cookie cutter warrior builds are better.

Quote:

I'm not sure there'd be a reason to post something new until Izzy does something to drastically shape up the warrior metagame.

This is very true. Unless Izzy makes some changes, don't expect warrior bars to change a whole lot.

samcobra · Mar 03, 2008, 02:00 PM // 14:00

You want a good warrior build that is not of the norm?

[skill]Warrior's Endurance[/skill][skill]Protector's Strike[/skill][skill]Eremite's Attack[/skill][skill]Mystic Sweep[/skill][skill]Distracting Strike[/skill][skill]Pious Assault[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill][skill]Bull's Strike[/skill]

Spam skills, lolol. Your IAS is in the attack activation time. Main downside to this build is lack of speed boost, but you can change the bar around somewhat depending on your needs.

Bobby2 · Mar 03, 2008, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Creativity is more easily implemented in team builds than in single-bar builds, because there are 32 or more slots instead of 8 to play around with. It can be as simple like "not needing to pack a self-heal, because Monk backup can be counted on". This allows for one more utility/offbeat skill choice in your own bar etc....

Apart from that there's simple skill quality. This usually comes down to skills having to meet certain conditions to work to their full extent (or at all), and their ability to accomplish a certain goal in light of other skills. In cookie-cutter builds, the essentials are covered, leaving little room for such frippery.

The Warrior class, admittedly, leaves little in the way of custimization - most offbeat builds attempt to utilize the energy management of the primary with the main purpose skills of the secondary class. Warrior energy management is crap, and the only other class to offer adren skills is the Paragon. So in this sense, I'd agree Warriors are a bit underclassed, since no particular Para skill comes to mind that I'd particularly want (being primarily an Axe-wielder, so no Enduring Harmony).

Then again, Wars can just about pick up any weapon and be effective. I've seen good Spear and Scythe builds beside the normal arsenal, just Bow and Daggers seem unpractical. W/A is still awesome though

Flem · Mar 03, 2008, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminarus

Remember, there are 300,000+ people who play the game, many have tried warrior in pvp. 99% of possible skill bars have probably been tried, and IF a bar was to succeed, it would have reached meta by now.

The problem with that is, that the large majority of GW is too scared to try something new because they wont get in groups/get riddiculed/are scared of risk. Only a handful of people actually try out new ideas.

It's websites like this that are to blame, actually. Full of elitists that join together to manipulate the new player base, which slowly develops to become the community of GW.

It seems to be human nature to shun the creative, but then when they finally "beat the odds" they are held at legendary status and the ones that once mocked them, now worship them.

Name just one historical figure that society has deemed as "great" that did not over step his set boundries. "Playing it safe" never amounts to anything worthwhile. True story.

Winterclaw · Mar 03, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Sam, bull's strike is worthless if you don't have a speed boost.

Div · Mar 03, 2008, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

The problem with that is, that the large majority of GW is too scared to try something new because they wont get in groups/get riddiculed/are scared of risk. Only a handful of people actually try out new ideas.

No, sorry to say but the large majority of GW is complete crap at this game and simply don't come up with good builds. If they did have a good build, they'd be able to do well with H/H without needing to pass the judgment of other shitty PUGs, and then get it approved here or by their guildies when they show the build.

Quote:

It's websites like this that are to blame, actually. Full of elitists that join together to manipulate the new player base, which slowly develops to become the community of GW.

Or maybe because most of those creative builds are complete trash? There's a difference between being elitist and not wanting to run junk builds. It's like if you were some D student in eighth grade science telling your teacher that you want to get a $100,000 grant to cure cancer. Chances are he'll just laugh at you. It's not because he's elitist, but that you're simply too naive.

Quote:

It seems to be human nature to shun the creative, but then when they finally "beat the odds" they are held at legendary status and the ones that once mocked them, now worship them.

And how often does that happen from the people who post trash builds with mending, heal breeze, and gladiator's defense? None. It's generally the better players testing out new stuff that'll come up with actual useful and creative builds. The rest just come up with useless crap that they think is creative.

Quote:

Name just one historical figure that society has deemed as "great" that did not over step his set boundries. "Playing it safe" never amounts to anything worthwhile. True story.

That's a given. But I bet for every one that succeeds, there are at least a thousand that fail. There's a reason they succeed: because they have some talent to begin with. It's like trying to say a horse has the intellectual capabilities of a human and can accomplish the same great feats.

Flem · Mar 03, 2008, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

No, sorry to say but the large majority of GW is complete crap at this game and simply don't come up with good builds. If they did have a good build, they'd be able to do well with H/H without needing to pass the judgment of other shitty PUGs, and then get it approved here or by their guildies when they show the build.

Or maybe because most of those creative builds are complete trash? There's a difference between being elitist and not wanting to run junk builds. It's like if you were some D student in eighth grade science telling your teacher that you want to get a $100,000 grant to cure cancer. Chances are he'll just laugh at you. It's not because he's elitist, but that you're simply too naive.

And how often does that happen from the people who post trash builds with mending, heal breeze, and gladiator's defense? None. It's generally the better players testing out new stuff that'll come up with actual useful and creative builds. The rest just come up with useless crap that they think is creative.

That's a given. But I bet for every one that succeeds, there are at least a thousand that fail. There's a reason they succeed: because they have some talent to begin with. It's like trying to say a horse has the intellectual capabilities of a human and can accomplish the same great feats.

So, are you saying everyone that runs a cookie cutter build instead of developing their own is a lower-skilled, less worthy player?

Are you saying that everyone that runs a cookie cutter build is of higher status and should be praised for copy-pasting other peoples ideas on to their bar?

If there is no in between of this matter, do you consider yourself one of the "elite" that can develop a flawless build to topple the current greats...or do you consider yourself one of the followers that hops on the coat-tails of the ones that work hard to create these "master-piece builds"?

Just curious.

Div · Mar 03, 2008, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

So, are you saying everyone that runs a cookie cutter build instead of developing their own is a lower-skilled, less worthy player?

No, I'm saying that those who don't even recognize the cookie cutter builds as being good will have little to no chance of developing their own unique build. You have to start out mastering cookie-cutter stuff, then develop your own thing.

Quote:

Are you saying that everyone that runs a cookie cutter build is of higher status and should be praised for copy-pasting other peoples ideas on to their bar?

Again, most people are too ignorant to see why the typical triple chop axe bar is superior to their riposte mending hundred blades crap. If they're not even able to tell a good bar from a bad one, I can safely say yes, someone who realizes the cookie cutter bar is superior will be better than the fool who continues on with their shitty bars. They shouldn't be praised for copying bars, but that's a biased question. They should be praised for not being a complete retard who lives in their own world thinking he's good when he's not.

Quote:

If there is no in between of this matter, do you consider yourself one of the "elite" that can develop a flawless build to topple the current greats...or do you consider yourself one of the followers that hops on the coat-tails of the ones that work hard to create these "master-piece builds"?

That's where you don't understand. There is no "flawless" build that beats all other builds. Builds are in a constant state of fluctuation and improvement, and keep changing as new synergies are found/created. Like I said before, the first step in creating a new build is to know why those cookie cutter builds are good. I play them, I embrace them. I also come up with unique hero synergies by modifying existing "cookie-cutter hero bars" to improve their effectiveness. If you want to talk about personal build creations, I was one of the ones who created and made popular the more recent wave of Melandru's resilience monks in RA.

Dr Strangelove · Mar 03, 2008, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

So, are you saying everyone that runs a cookie cutter build instead of developing their own is a lower-skilled, less worthy player?

Are you saying that everyone that runs a cookie cutter build is of higher status and should be praised for copy-pasting other peoples ideas on to their bar?

He's saying that creative builds do sometimes work, but 99% of the trash posted here does not. I would say a skilled player runs stuff that works, whether it's a new build or an old classic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flem

If there is no in between of this matter, do you consider yourself one of the "elite" that can develop a flawless build to topple the current greats...or do you consider yourself one of the followers that hops on the coat-tails of the ones that work hard to create these "master-piece builds"?

What you fail to realize is that this is not PVXwiki. All the knowledgeable posters here are capable of creating and tweaking their own builds. The difference between most of us and you is that we do not instantly throw out the collected knowledge of other players to fluff our own egos.

Yukito Kunisaki · Mar 03, 2008, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Most impressive.

I'm glad to see I pulled out some thoughtful insight alongside some thoughtless posts. Gotta take both in stride

For the majority, at least as example and experience, in order to get that 'maximum capacity' build, you still need to use the cookie cutter for easily 3/4ths of your build and even then, the elitists will still strike you down

[and in worser cases, not add a reason or give any substitutes for the skills you've chosen to modify your cookie-cutter]

I suppose the most freedom can be found in Random Arena [barely] or PvE [if your teammates aren't exclusives who boot you for not knowing how they play]

Decent discussion thus far... What do you think should be done to improve these attitudes of "Bring this or you suck" from players? I'll admit, I've been guilty of it a few times for some PvE runs and for that I'm truly a sorry hypocrite. I'm thinking older skills should be buffed and the more popular skills be nerfed [oh wait, they're doing that already and still there's little to no progress

]

Div · Mar 03, 2008, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Decent discussion thus far... What do you think should be done to improve these attitudes of "Bring this or you suck" from players? I'll admit, I've been guilty of it a few times for some PvE runs and for that I'm truly a sorry hypocrite.

In a PUG, it's really hard to avoid that mentality. If you can't trust the skill level of those you play with, at least you can trust their bar is decent by forcing a cookie cutter onto them. The best way to avoid it is to go with guildies or friends who will let you test out new builds and won't get all ragey or emo when it fails. If you're fairly new at creating decent, new builds though, I'd say to test it out with H/H before making your friends lose faith in your new stuff.

Quote:

I'm thinking older skills should be buffed and the more popular skills be nerfed [oh wait, they're doing that already and still there's little to no progress

]

Don't try to sneak in a cute little cheap shot about skill balance. It doesn't work. People will know you did it, and then you'll look like a fool. Popular skills are not getting constantly nerfed. Take devastating hammer for example. Take dragon slash or cripslash for example. Only overpowered skills and skills that make the game stale will get shaken up.

Miska Bow · Mar 03, 2008, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

What do you think should be done to improve these attitudes of "Bring this or you suck" from players?

]

I just leave.
I dont suck at pve and i read wiki before every mission, quest or dungeon. Therefore i always have a skill bar suited for what's up ahead.

If they dont like my skill bar they can *insert gross stuff here*